You used the rule book like a lawyer.
hahahaha. Honestly, I have about as good of a chance winning a debate against you as I have tapping Prof. Williams on the mat!!!!!! ;D
The adage that comes to mind is "you can't beat a car salesman at their own game".
So, for sure I'm not going to out-debate a professional.
but...for sh*ts and giggles....(ha..I never really got that expression anyway...could you imagine someone sh*tting and giggling at the same time....)
I'll try to answer some of your questions. Especially since it's Monday night and I have nothing better to do right now.
That being said, I would argue what is a "submission position?"
In this particular case, it applies to the arm-lock position. Books, websites and even Prof. Williams use that term to describe the position that Dave had that guy in.
If you swept an opponent and his ankle was pinned under him in some freakish position and he screamed . . . did you just submit that opponent?
Submit?...No. Should the match stop and the competitor be checked for injury? Yes.
The safety of all competitors should be the number one priority. Just as they stop a match if the competitors go out of bounds and reset them in the same positions, they can stop the fight to check for injury and reset them in the same positions.
What if the scream itself was out of concern for an impending injury but the injury doesn't occur? Should the "submission" count?
Impending injury because of a potential submission? Yes
Impending injury because of some random incident like a twisted ankle? No, but again, the match should stop and the competitor checked for injury.
Better yet, what constitutes a "scream?" What if you "scream" from exerting energy to get out of a submission much like power lifters and wrestlers? Perhaps you are trying to muscle out of a submission that isn't quite there and you scream to get out?
Again, the fight should stop.
My former instructor, Marc, was competing and caught this guy in an arm-lock. The guy didn't scream, but he had a grimace on his face, so Marc looked up at the ref, and the ref stopped the match. The guy complained "hey...I didn't tap...I didn't tap. So the ref started them back from the arm-lock position and the guy didn't tap again and Marc broke his arm. In this case, Marc and ref did everything right. That guy lost his arm because he was stupid.
Stopping the fight to ensure the safety of a competitor is, I think, the best way to handle the situation.
"When in doubt, stop the bout" (Hahaha....i'm like Johnny Cochran.
)
At least I think it sounds better than "when in doubt, break the arm!!!!!"
Look, I am not advocating that we break arms. However, I can clearly say that Dave C's action was very
borderline malicious at best. Maybe I'm not picking it up on the video, but it didn't look
that bad.
If you use terms like "borderline malicious" and "not that bad", then you are already starting to see my point a little bit.
Ethical behavior among competitors is paramount and Dave, just as any other instructor, should be leading by example. If he maliciously hurts his competitors, then his students, followers and admires will start doing the same thing and they will excuse it by saying "it's not that bad".
A few questions for you.
1. When is it a good time to put the safety of a competitor on the back burner for the win?
2. With regards to holding on to a submission after the opponent surrenders, how long is too long?
3. Also, with regards to breaking someones arm after they submit, how bad is bad enough?
(4-6 are kind of related)
4. What will happen if everyone starts holding on to submissions too long in competition? Will it chain react to a bunch of unethical behaviors?
5. If you compete against a competitor known to hold on too long, how do you react when they catch you in a submission hold? For example, if you know for sure that this guy will break your arm and you don't want it to get broken, do you fight fire with fire by spiking them on their head or step on their face?
6. If your team mate got his arm broken on purpose and you are entering a match with the person that broke it, will you start "head hunting" and is that even O.K.?
7. Could you ever imagine Prof. Williams or SPF EVER intentionally breaking someones arm?
Just to restate my points. Dave broke that guys arm when it wasn't necessary. Dave has a lot of fans/ students / supporters (myself included, albeit a disappointed one) that look up to him and will want to follow in his footsteps. As a leader, Dave has a responsibility to teach his students not only technique, but ethical behavior. If Dave (and I'm sure there are others out there) holds on to submissions too long and a trend starts, it will definitely have a negative impact on the sport as a whole.
Oh well, it's getting late...
Good night.
P.S. Yes....I'm arguing for arguments sake at this point ;D